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Communism & Fascism are NOT bad (Thread)

Communism/Fascism are NOT Bad
A persuasive thread

Ok, let me start with this:
I do not condone Hitler's mass extermination of the Jews/Gypsies/etc, nor do I believe that having a society without the competition that is prevalent in capitalist societies is ideal. I do not want this thread to devolve like the "Russian Shovels Suck" thread did.

At the same time, I feel that these things in a position that they do not deserve. Communism and Fascism are not bad, only the way they have been implemented in the past.

First, onto Fascism.
The best-known fascist state is Germany, under rule of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, or Nazis. During their rule, Hitler moved to eradicate those that he deemed to be "life unworthy of living". Among these "unworthy people" were Jews, Slavs, the mentally/physically handicapped, Communists, homosexuals, Roma(gypsies), and other "half-breeds", or "Mischlinge". It is through his Third Reich that Fascism came to be thought of as a horrible way to live.

Now, from an objective standpoint, take a look at what was created:
From a country in poverty, it was transformed into a country leading a world war, against superpowers like the USSR and USA. Industry boomed, and the greatest scientists of the century popped out of the woodwork, to create new weapons and technologies. Militaristic strategies matured to points that were unthinkable at the time, and medical technology blossomed. Although the approaches may have been wrong, and borderline barbaric, the knowledge was gained. Horrible experiments on twins, the handicapped, and others led to many discoveries that would never had been found.

While it was a horrible thing that was done, think of how amazing it is that this small group took control of a country, and, without too much of a resistance, systematically killed off much of it's population. If the USA or UK were to try something of that scale today, how well would it work?

Fascism is a framework that can help a country gain greatness, at the cost of personal happiness. The people suffered, "undesirable" or not, but much was gained in return. They gained a world superpower, with cutting edge medical technology, military strength, and economic power. If such things were put to use today, in specific areas, we could benefit greatly from it.

Now, onto Communism/Socialism:
There has never been a "pure" Communist republic, though many have flirted with it. The USSR, China, and Cuba are all Socialist republics, with varying degrees of success, and varying degrees of "purity" to their implementation. Looking to the USSR and China, it is, again, hard to call them horrible. China is a growing world power, while the USSR was a main contender in the Cold War, and the USA's main rival for nearly 50 years. It spurred space exploration, bio-weapons, and new industrial practices, all achieved by modularization.

A perfect example of Communism would be the none other than the beloved cartoon, "The Smurfs". In the show, the Smurfs each had a designated job. The all wore the same clothes, with slight alterations for characterization, and were all male (which can be tied to all workers at the time being male). They had a flourishing society, in which each Smurf did their job, and did it well. In episodes where others tried to help them out, they failed. they had one leader, Papa Smurf, and nothing akin to a council. Their greatest enemy? Gargamel, whom wanted to boil them, for a potion to create gold, showing himself as quite a capitalist.

Seeing their success, can you still consider them to be so bad? They may have been implemented by the wrong people/groups, but they led to great things.

I feel that communist practices deserve a place in certain industries, such as agriculture, where a variety of companies providing the same good is not needed. I also feel that we can take a couple lessons from Fascism, in our industrial and militaristic sectors.

your argument on facism is invalid. facism want at fault for getting the industry to boom, thats a side effect of thje WAR. because in EVERY GREAT WAR, INDUSTRY BOOMS BECAUSE THE COUNTRYS TRY TO MAKE NEW TECHNOLOGY FOR WARFARE, THAT MAY BE USED FOR OTHER PURPOSES LATER. BUT THATS NOT THE FACISMS DOING, FACISM IS NOT GOOD. IT WAS MERELY A DIVERSION; HITLER GAVE THE PEOPLE "JOBS" TO MAKE PEOPEL THINK EVERYTHIGN WAS GOING BETTER, BUT MOST OF THE WERE MERELY MADE TO BUILD "PANZERSPERREN" THAT LOOKED USEFUL BUT ACTUALLY DID NOTHING. JUST TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE POVERTY DECREASED.
http://www.blogwiese.ch/wp-content/PanzerSperre.jpg

plus, you cant compare socialism/communism and facism..
comminism was a good idea, but it failed at reality. every time it was tried out, because the leaders always abused their power.

You pleasantly surprised me with an objective outlook on the matter.

There is just one thing that bugs me; maybe I got it wrong but counting in weapons as breakthroughs is a bit weird. At the time, sure, those were moves necessary to support such regimes, but still...

As for the treatment those regimes get today; I have just one quote. History is written by the winners.

Also, note that I too do not approve of the ways people tried to implement communism or the racial politics of fascism.

edit @break: Fascism led a sucessful economy, the fact that it was based upon war industry could have been different in some other circumstances.

i think the system germany has NOW is a good one: social democracy, it has lots f elements of the "captalism" stuff but also elements of socialism, such as socila care and whatnot. yep, after the whole WWII stuff we were the one who inevnted that sytsme and firts used it, but nobody seems to care about germany AFTER WWII. a friend of mine lived in canada for years, and half the peopel he told he was from germany didnt know what it was. they knew bavaria though, which is only a part of germany. 1/6, size-wise... also heard of people thinking the wall would still stand...

@gargod im not sure what to think of the "surprisingly" right...

It doesn't matter what ideology you follow, as long as you can't run an economy successfully it will fail.

War spurs many great things, yes, but, at the same time, many of these breakthroughs happened prior to WWII. The experimentation, economic boosts due to better practices, etc, all happened, without the war. The war did help, I agree, but it is not the only reason. Why did America not go through such a turnaround? We are at war now, why are all of these great things not coming to fruition? If we put things into context of when they happened, I could also argue that the Allied Powers did not enjoy these boosts to such an extent as Nazi Germany.

The same could be said of the USSR. The Cold War didn't have any fighting outside of building up resources, which means that the usual economic boosts that come with wartime countries are moot.

I consider weaponry as a breakthrough as it is a necessary evil, and a branch of technology that gets a lot of attention.

Also, I was in no way comparing Communism and Facism, only saying that they have a place in many Democratic Republics, for they have many merits that are overshadowed by who implemented them.

Next, Break, you cannot hand out jobs that do not exist. You cannot give out imaginary funds. Fascism did lead to a stronger government and economy.

Acostoss, economies don't get better due to certain ideology, they get better due to good economic practices, ideologies are just the different ways you commit to them.

@Lethn "If you cannot run an economy successfully, it will fail"?
If I cannot drive my care correctly, it will crash?
If I cannot type correctly, I will misspell?
Is it not obvious that when you cannot do something successfully, that it will end in failure?

Next, yes, they get better through practices laid out by the ideologies, I know that. If something is seen as communist, though, as it is akin to the ideology, it will not be used in today's Democratic countries. What I am arguing is that we need to look past that, as these ideologies are NOT bad, only how they were carried out.

Reading comprehension, yo.

Yes but your assuming that certain ideologies make these things happen well in certain areas, when it is nothing of the sort.

I am saying that they can work better than our current ones.

Instead of on farmer making carrots, corn, wheat and raising cows, he can do only carrots, while another does only corn. These men become masters of their respective vegetables, and do them more efficiently, than someone that juggles everything.

That's more to do with peoples actions and ideas though and not ideologies, new economic practices can't really be defined through political ideologies since those are just descriptions of different types of government. Economics is an entirely different matter as has been proven by the banking system and currencies who really control things in the world now.

Lethn, please [cite]
Examples and readings to back up your claims.

i didnt say that thhe jobs didnt exist, i said they were just something liek.. an impostor. see, he picked up the poeple from the street and sent them to build some stones against tanks that did do absoluetely nothing,a nd he knew that. it wa smerely giving people jobs without purpose to make it look liek the economy and the jobs would get beter and better.
and as your ina war right now: i guess you mena america. you CANT suspect a war with a country thats way les developed than yours to have you make great military breakthroughs (even though you didn have some, with your jets and whatnot) .. in WWII, the whole world was at war. of course there where great military breakthroughs. of course you dotn have the same ones when fighting with a little one that only even has teh weapns you yourself gave them years ago!

I'd post you a video explaining the banking system to you and how it controls the availability of currency to the public and the state but I'm wondering whether you'll take the Spooky approach and claim your too clever to watch it or take another more irritating approach of denial.

What I'll do is I'll give you a small video and see how you react :) Most of these ideologies and governments are purely formed around stealing from the people. They hardly ever do anything for them.

break, I meant in terms of economy, we are not doing so well, despite the wartime boost you spoke of. That has little to do with whom you're fighting.

I'd also like to see a citation on your story about him sending people from the street to go build stones against tanks. I have never heard of anything of the like, and would like to know more about it, if you would please.

... all I know about this thread is that there are gonna be fights ]:

but I agree with acostoss, every political system have its upsides. It's the negatives that everyone gets picky over.

in case you havent noticed, we had a WORLD ECONOMY CRISIS recently. (during which, on a side note, every germna anime dvd publisher except for kazé has gone bankrupt...)
of course your not ding a sgood a sbefore, but that applies to everyone!

and theres areason why farmers dont to just one sort of vegetable: PRECISELY BECAUS EITS UNECONOMIC TO DO SO. it makes the soil bad and less and less usable, it limits the time they can harvest drastically and makes them suffer hard if they have a bad harvest or the market for their vegetable goes down for some time. the current sytsme is way better, and it even was in medievil times when it was invented. you cant just all year make carrots , its impossible, you will literally kill the quality of the soil until you cant harvest anything on your broken fields anymore, while youu also cant harvest anything half the year andwill starve to death. thanks.

Lethn, you claim to know economics, but let me ask you this: How are federal reserve notes any different from any other capital? They have a value set by the economy, and fluctuate with how much is available. You can use them to buy other items that may be used as capital, or not use them at all.

The only differences is that they are easier to transport, and are one, unified method that has a set value. This makes it easier for banking institutions to operate, as they only need to worry about money, not cows, chickens, fish, wood, stones, etc.

Next, how is the video related to this discussion. You only showed a thoroughly biased look at things, one that doesn't look at the larger picture. The man is not a proper showing of a bank, as he does not store it for their use later. He is not employing them, and giving them something in return. He is only a consumer, much like a child would be.
Next, these are small situations in which barter is ideal. Barter is not ideal across a country, or the world. Imagine having to buy Indian spices online. They want 4 eggs, which are not in abundance in your area, you find someone with eggs, but he wants something for them that is also quite rare in your area. You eventually get these things, but the spices have already been traded. Compare this to money.

Next, how do you set minimum wages? 1/2lb of beef an hour?

How would supermarkets work?
Electronics retailers?
Barter is a system that relies on one's individual wants and needs too much. With money, everyone wants it, as you can use it for anything. Not everyone would want meat, so your 4lbs that you got for a day's work would be useless to you for some things.

This is of-topic, anyways. Please connect this to Communism/Facism, or create a post that does so. Else, please leave.

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