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[Religious Thought] Are we really sinners? (Thread)

for the sake of conversation, we are going to go with an old definition of sin. Sin was derived from an archery term. Of course, you want to hit the middle of the target, the bulls-eye. However, if you miss or go off center, it's a sin. Thus, the term was adopted to refer to behavior that was not on target with god's will. If you strayed off the righteous path, it was sin.

In the bible, many sins are outlines. You must follow the ten commandments, The church developed the seven deadly sins. Most everybody is familiar with the common concepts of what we believe sin to be today. However, consider it by the old definition of being with god's will. Conforming to what god wants and expects of you.

If god did create humans with their human nature, he know what we are capable and the things we gravitate to. We cheat, lie, and steal. God created humans with various traits that the bible considers wrong. However, can you claim a loving god yet claim that he put us on this earth unable to achieve his desires? I believe that we are able to live to god's expectations, if he made us.

He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, because we could use it for ultimate good. He gave us free will because it would be the best for us. Why would he give us commandments to damn us by, or a human nature that is unable to succeed at righteousness? It doesn't match up with everything else.

I believe there are two ways to take this thought. He gave us the sacrifice of Christ so that we could live in imperfection, while maintaining god as a perfect good. He can't believe us to be worthy of his almighty good, because we aren't that good. Thus, we need entrance via Christ. This is the orthodox thought behind Christianity.

However, the orthodox doesn't make for good conversation. I want to challenge this thought for a while, for the sake of thinking.

EDIT: Section removed for clarity and focus.

We are imperfect, because we wouldn't have the human experience without it. We must find our own way of interacting in the world around us, while leaving a positive effect. I believe that striving for the best, and trying to do well is the key to abiding by god's will. The bible says that faith nor works alone grant entrance to heaven. It requires both. Does that faith mean you must believe in Jesus and do well, or believe in the concept of good and do well?

The theory has some holes in it, but I thinks it fun to think about. What if god's demand of us is lower, and more attainable? Can god be loving and give us an impossible goal? Tell me what you think, or your interpretation of human's and sin.

everyone sins, no one is perfect, god made us in his own vision, and god made us the way we are cuz he already knos our past, present, and rly anythin we mite think, do, or say he is way ahead of us an already kno wat we will do...he gav us all sumtin to do while we are on earth..we may not kno wat it is now but lata on we will c wat he want us to do..thats y we are on fufill the goal god gav us..

Hmm... I agree with the fact that it would be pointless to be perfect and without flaws, because we would all be pretty much the same. I also agree that God has a plan for all of us and that even beginning to try and figure it out entirely is also pointless because we are what we are. and that is HUMAN.

Religion has many ways to be interpret people has decisions and everyone we make has a cause and effect what we do in our life is up to the individual themselves. Every little thing has an existence and a purpose to serve but changes happen along the way that shape personality and judgment. Its people who choose what to do with our life God could just be a spectator he doesn't make anyone do anything or tell you how to live your life. Its up to every individual to choose what to do and what their desire maybe.

I read halfway before becoming a little bit angry. According to the Scriptures, God did NOT create us with the knowledge of good and evil. He created us with free will, because he did not want us to be forced to follow him. In the Bible it talks about the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God told Adam and Eve to not eat the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (it was the tithe unto God). He told them they could eat any of the other trees except that one. And what did they do? They ate that tree's fruit. It's our own damn fault that we live in a sinful world.

Personality is not defined by the good and bad we do. I have a very eccentric personality, with weird kwirks and subtleties. These things are not sin, they are personality. We don't need to be disobeying God to be ourselves.

Who knows how things would've turned out if our ancestors didn't listen to a serpent and ate that fruit. I doubt we would be "robots" though, since, even now, our flaws do not determine who we are.

@VivoDePyre - could you more clearly state your theory? I'm having a hard time distinguishing between whether you are treating some of your statements as accepted common knowledge, or whether they are part of your theory.

@Decae - I don't know your feelings towards the matter, but personally, I'm glad we ate the fruit. The world is likely a lot more interesting because of it. Maybe Eve had the clarity of mind, using her newly acquired free will, to realize how utterly boring the world would be without good and evil. For all we know... Eve could have been like... "piss off serpent... I'm not eating this fruit just because your telling me it'll be alright. I'm doing this for my own reasons."

More likely though, since this was the first falsehood that Eve had ever heard, she had no reason to doubt the serpent's assertion that she wouldn't die after eating the fruit.

Put another way... we learn from our mistakes. Eve had yet to make any mistakes and therefore no prior knowledge to make a rational decision. So I can't fault her for eating the fruit. I imagine that anyone else in the same situation, with the same knowledge, would do the exact same thing.

@DECAE are you upset at what i typed or the other guy

Bah, I accidentally refreshed my entire post. Here we go again.

@Fieyr As soon as I finish typing this, I'll go up and organize the first post a little better. Anything I say is up for debate or controversy. An argument or theory rests on it's foundations. If the foundations don't stand, neither does the theory. The theory is that our flaws are intentional. As such, god may not expect as much of us as we are lead to think. Perhaps we don't need to feel like we sin every hour, as some may say we do.

@Decae I'm sorry to cause you anger, I mean only to propose an idea. But since you brought it up, I'll address the tree really quick. You can argue with me on this one if you'd like, anything to keep a real discussion alive.

So when I think about the tree, I think god must have caused us to eat from the tree. God created the tree, he made it in edible fruit form, he made the serpent, he made us susceptible to his deception. If you believe he didn't make the serpent, then the serpent must be a god. Only a god could exist without being created by a god, or stand directly against a god. If god is omniscient and omnipresent, he knew that we would be deceived and the consequences of his own actions before he acts. God had to have known that we would eat from the fruit if he is omniscient. If he is not omniscient then... well, I have no idea. If there's a gap in my logic that allows god not to have had a very direct hand in us eating from the fruit, please let me know.

And you're right about the personality thing. I deeply overstated the importance of sin in personality. Flaw does not equal trait so simply, for not all personality traits lead to sin in one of it's polar sides. My apologies on that assumption, it was a poor and hurried jump. Furthermore, it detracts from the original point. If you would like, we can make a new thread about it and talk about it there. However, in retrospect, it's not needed for the theory.

TL;DR - I'm cutting out the personality part for clarity of theory and discussion.

@VivoDePyre: I was just angry at the lack of evidence. I have read much of the Bible and know my stuff. Therefore, I will clarify who God is according to the Bible.

He cannot control people. He gave us free will from the beginning. There is much evidence to prove this. One of the best pieces is how he had to curse the Egyptians so many times to convince them to let the Jews go. If he could change minds, he wouldn't have to go to such desperate measures. God is a loving God, he would never do something so horrid unless he absolutely had to.

I believe the serpent was controlled by Lucifer. Lucifer was the Angel of Light who ended up rebelling and fell to the Earth, and is not a god. God did not put the Serpent and the tree there to deceive Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. The tree was the TITHE. A tithe is a 10% offering to god, and that tree was that 10%. It is because they stole from God that they sinned, and got the knowledge of Good and Evil, and were exiled from the garden. He did not intentionally tempt them, for God is not deceitful.

I believe he knew what was going to happen. We were designed to be his children and to inherit the kingdom of God. It obviously came at a price though.

Honestly, I am a bit glad she ate the fruit, but it's a selfish glad. I am a free spirit and hate boundaries, however, if she obeyed God it would've saved many people a lot of pain. This kind of stuff is hard to discuss. orz

Right, I'm glad that she ate the fruit too, in a strange way. I just like the friction of difficulty and struggle.

But I never thought of it as a tithe. The thought of giving god a tithe is strange to me, but it does fit the bill. It's entirely possible that he didn't want to deceive us, but had to for some reason or another. I don't believe that he didn't deceive us, but I'll accept various motives and means. The idea of being omniscient is that you know the result of everything. That means that eve being deceived was the best option in some way or another. I don't claim to know how, but it's interesting to think about how that ties into other ideas.

@Vivo: Perhaps there was nothing he could do to stop it, That it would've happened eventually. With the human mind being curious as it is, that would be predicted.

Also, we are made in the image of God, so technically he cannot change human nature.

How can God be curious about things, when he makes everything?





I am an atheist, but I like to ask myself now after I read this thread: How would it be if we didn't eat the fruit? Would it be all perfect and miracullous and bla bla bla? Chat with god and stuff like that?
Mneah it would have been pretty boring and narrow minded.
But I am happy that I don't believe in that thing. Somehow I feel that my mind is free.

im an atheist too, but beeing interested in all kinds of mythologies, i dug into all the mythology stuff that isnt exactly standing in the bible itself, liek all the names and roles of the angels and demons.
and a fun fact is that the serpient is actually most likely supposed to be samael, not satan^^ interesting huh?

@break that is interesting :) an i lik mythical things (i think all myths or wat ppl think are myths are real to me) even though we cant c them they are still real..just hidin from the human eye thats all :D

uhm okay
so more stuff thats christian/jewish mythology but not int he bible: lilith
lilith was adams first wife
but she was unfaithful so he left her
and she made up with samael (thugh im nto sure if samael is supposed to be a fallen angel or just a weird corrupted angel that didnt fall)
and became something like a demon i guess
and ehr children are called lilim and they are more or less the same as succubi, meaning they live from men's life energy and extract it by having sex with them.

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